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Rippraff
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Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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Location: Germany
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toaddub
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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to the forum, Rippraff!  Very interesting. How can the original doesn't have Time Map table, whereas DRMP output does? Not having the Time Map table is strange considering there are contents. In the original I see that the Title 1 is shown for dummy PGCs, exactly what PgcEdit is showing. I see that DRMP automatically generates the Time Map table for all PGCs. It's just that it does not assign a Title(TTN) # for dummy PGCs. In PgcEdit, if you create a dummy PGC by selecting, for example, TTN 2 PGC then it will inherit its current Title (VMG Title) and TTN (VTS Title) numbers. As for DRMP, if you add PGC from Program Chains domain, it will create a blank-cell PGC by default, instead of a dummy PGC (which was the previous versions behavior). How would DRMP know what TTN # to assign if there are multiple TTNs in a VTS? Perhaps if you use "Duplicate" on an existing dummy PGC that it will inherit the TTN number? How 'bout when creating a new dummy PGC? Would the Titles pane need to be modified to assign a Title, not a chapter, for dummy PGC? I don't know what the correct DVD specs would be, but I think this is the current DRMP behavior: you can only create a title and chapter (Titles pane) for the PGC if it is a content PGC. Maybe that's why it resets the TTN for dummy PGC on export. Apparently, you make it work in PgcEdit. So maybe this is a bug in DRMP? Dimad will be able to figure this out.
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Rippraff
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hello toaddub, and thank you for your answer. There are a lot of questions now and I'm pretty sure I can't answer them all.  | toaddub wrote: | | How would DRMP know what TTN # to assign if there are multiple TTNs in a VTS? |
That's a really good question. | Quote: | | Perhaps if you use "Duplicate" on an existing dummy PGC that it will inherit the TTN number? |
That was my first idea, but when you duplicate say PGC6 you will inherit the title number but as no nr. exist the resulting duplicated dummy is also without the TT number.  | Quote: | | How 'bout when creating a new dummy PGC? |
It's the same, if PGC6 is chosen when you rightclick and say create new dummy PGC the new one is also without TTN. I had to chose a PGC combined with TTN 1 for example PGC8. | Quote: | | Would the Titles pane need to be modified to assign a Title, not a chapter, for dummy PGC? |
Actually, I didn't find a way in PgcEdit to modify the TTN value. All I can say the missing TTN assignment was the reason why it didn't play! Lastly with the advice of a girl in my home forum (I love her for that  ) I found a way in IfoEdit to modify the assignment. I've first tried to modify it by changing "title number" value but IfoEdit left me with "item is not editable." The right way is: IFOEDIT > VTS_PGCITI > * VTS_PGC_6: Category mask 0 > VTS_PGC_6: Category mask 1 And so on with PGC 7, 15, 17, 22 and 23. The result plays fine and I don't have to deal with new dummy PGCs and a lot of modifications. | Quote: | | So maybe this is a bug in DRMP? Dimad will be able to figure this out. |
This was also one of my thoughts and that' s the reason why I decided to post it here. Cu Rippraff
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toaddub
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Joined: 12 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, the questions I posted weren't meant for you to answer. But thanks for answering for further clarifications. They are meant more like statements in the form of questions. Edit: Yes, editing the category mask for the PGC is the right way to do it. (I made wrong comment on the cat. mask for entry PGC).
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DimadSoft
DvdReMake Official support
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, DvdReMake does not support dummy PGCs in VTs domain (actually we are not sure if they are really allowed there by DVD specs). We should do something in future versions about this.
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Rippraff
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| toaddub wrote: | | Actually, the questions I posted weren't meant for you to answer. But thanks for answering for further clarifications. They are meant more like statements in the form of questions. |
Thanks again for your kind answer. As english isn't my mother language it's sometimes hard to see the differences. | DimadSoft wrote: | | Yes, DvdReMake does not support dummy PGCs in VTs domain (actually we are not sure if they are really allowed there by DVD specs). |
Hi Dimad, I was looking around for some informations about that half the day which isn't in german. This is what I've found: | mpucoder wrote: | | A dummy PGC is any PGC with no programs, and they can be in any domain. They are most often used in the VMG, but nothing prohibits their use elsewhere. Other rules must be followed, eg a PGC in the title domain must belong to a title. The playback time, number of programs, number of cells, PG playback mode, PGC still time, next, previous, goup, all bytes in the color lookup table, audio stream control, and subpicture stream control must be zero. There can not be a program map (PGC_PBMAP), cell playback information table (C_PBIT), or cell position table (C_POSIT). Dummy PGCs can contain pre and/or post commands, although the distinction is meaningless. The pre commands, if any, will execute followed by the post commands. |
Source | Quote: | | We should do something in future versions about this. |
I would really appreciate that. Cu Rippraff
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toaddub
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting on what you found. So, with this quote, | mpucoder wrote: | | Other rules must be followed, eg a PGC in the title domain must belong to a title. |
Would you mind ask the great mpucoder that this also applies to dummy PGC, just to confirm, that's all. I look in several commercial DVDs and so far see only dummy PGCs in VMG and menu domains, except on yours of course. Is this Madagascar you're doing?
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Rippraff
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Posts: 19
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| toaddub wrote: | | Would you mind ask the great mpucoder that this also applies to dummy PGC, just to confirm, that's all. |
I've sent him a pm a short while ago just to say thank you for this information. Maybe he sends a reply, if so I'll post it. | Quote: | | I look in several commercial DVDs and so far see only dummy PGCs in VMG and menu domains, except on yours of course. |
I agree that these DVDs are rare. I just found them on the bonus disc of The Incredibles as well as on Shrek2. In Shrek2 in VTS 17 there are dummy PGCs with two different titles (1 and 2)! | Quote: | | Is this Madagascar you're doing? |
Yes. Cu Rippraff Edit: Correction Shrek2 not Shrek
Last edited by Rippraff on Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DimadSoft
DvdReMake Official support
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for research. Here is somemore info to think about the subj: VTS title actually lists "chapters": references to PGC programs. Dummy PGC does not contain any program, but: "PGC in the title domain must belong to a title". There is no other place in VTS title table (in ifo file) to link to dummy PGCs. PGC indeed has a "link back" to titles (as you found out in PGC category). So, can dummy PGC be accessed by "Jump VTS Title" (somewhat probable) or "Jump Title Chapter" (most probably not) commands? Or it is only to be used for "LinkPGC"? The bottom line is: It seams that assigning dummy PGCs in VTS domain to Title 1 should always work (of course Title 1 must exist then) as it does not matter for what VTS Title dummy PGC is an "entry PGC". In your example all dummy PGCs are "entry PGC" of Title 1.
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Rippraff
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| DimadSoft wrote: | | The bottom line is: It seams that assigning dummy PGCs in VTS domain to Title 1 should always work (of course Title 1 must exist then) as it does not matter for what VTS Title dummy PGC is an "entry PGC". In your example all dummy PGCs are "entry PGC" of Title 1. |
That isn't true. It 's right for my example, but as I mentioned above, in Shrek2 there are dummy PGCs with both TTN1 and TTN2. Cu Rippraff
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toaddub
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:43 am Post subject: |
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I think there can be only one entry PGC for each TTN, starting with the lowest vobid, not necessarily the lowest PGC # with the new TTN. See the example I have in this DVD after using Move Left/Right feature.
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Rippraff
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Hello again, I was so busy with this dummy PGC stuff that I've missed that. | toaddub wrote: | | Very interesting. How can the original doesn't have Time Map table, whereas DRMP output does? Not having the Time Map table is strange considering there are contents. |
Sorry to say no. Time map tables are only allowed for One_sequential_PGC titles. You will never find time map tables inside a Multi_PGC assigned to the same title number in an original ifo because this is out of DVD specifikation. | Quote: | | I see that DRMP automatically generates the Time Map table for all PGCs. |
And that's the reason why the original files are smaller than the ones DRMP has created. | Quote: | | Three types of titles exist: a monolithic title meant to be played straight through (one_sequential_PGC title), a title with multiple PGCs for varying program flow (multi_PGC title), and a title with multiple PGCs that are automatically selected according to the parental restriction setting of the player (parental_block title) . One_sequential_PGC titles are the only kind that have time maps for timecode display and searching. |
Source: DVD Demystified - Jim Taylor Cu Rippraff
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toaddub
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Rippraff wrote: | | Sorry to say no. Time map tables are only allowed for One_sequential_PGC titles. You will never find time map tables inside a Multi_PGC assigned to the same title number in an original ifo because this is out of DVD specifikation. |
If this is the case, then the ifo I posted, that was generated by DRMP, should not generate Time Map table for non one_sequential_pgc title? I compare this with the original ifo, and sure enough it's just empty time map with no entries. FYI, when comparing the DRMP and the original ifos, I deleted some pgcs in the multi-pgc title, but it should not matter. So to comply with the specs, DRMP should try to match that of the original ifo? I find out that you can't seek time play/search even if Time Map table is generated for multi-pgc title.
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Rippraff
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Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi toaddub | toaddub wrote: | | If this is the case, then the ifo I posted, that was generated by DRMP, should not generate Time Map table for non one_sequential_pgc title? |
yes, DRMP shouldn't generate Time Map tables in this case, because it's outside the spec and also useless as it doesn't work. | Quote: | | I compare this with the original ifo, and sure enough it's just empty time map with no entries. FYI, when comparing the DRMP and the original ifos, I deleted some pgcs in the multi-pgc title, but it should not matter. So to comply with the specs, DRMP should try to match that of the original ifo? |
Yes I think so even if I don't know if this can result in problems. I'll have a look at your ifo later, I'm at work now with a little hangover and can't open it here. | Quote: | | I find out that you can't seek time play/search even if Time Map table is generated for multi-pgc title. |
That's also true. Cu Rippraff
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Rippraff
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Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 19
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for fixing the TTN association problem! But sorry to say | DRMP 3.3 history wrote: | | FIX - generate time maps (TMAP) only for sequential PGCs in singlePGC titles |
isn't true.  DRMP 3.3 still generates time map tables for multi PGCs. By the way happy new year to all of you! Cu Rippraff
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DRMP backup: 
As you can see, in VTS 19 there are six dummy PGC which aren't combined with TTN 1. In PgcEdit I've built new dummy PGCs, copied all the commands stored in PGC 6, 7, 15... into the newly created, changed the corresponding links and this new result played fine (but was a lot of work for me to do